Fellowship July 25th, 2013 (Forgiveness Part 1)

Fellowship in the Household of Faith

06/25/2013

We at some point talk about forgiveness, as in us forgiving others.

BELIEVER 6: Matthew 12:44-50, "While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with Him.  Then one said unto Him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.  But He answered and said unto him that told him, Who is My mother? and who are My brethren?  And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, Behold My mother and My brethren!  For whosoever shall do the will of My Father which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother."

BELIEVER 4: thank you because you seal your word Father.

BELIEVER 6: Matthew 13, "The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. And great multitudes were gathered together unto Him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up...."

This happens to us,

"And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew, and choked the seed, but some seed feel on good earth, and bore fruit, some one-hundred fold, some sixty, and some thirty.  He who has ears to here, let him here. And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.  For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.  But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.  Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.  When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.  But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;  Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.  He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful..."

As if nothing has happened.  We need to ask the Lord for ears to hear what the Spirit is saying, spiritual eyes to see those who are blind. Lord Jesus thank You for Your word, thank You for giving us wisdom that we don't have, thank You because You raise up these dry bones.

BELIEVER 1: 365 Kid's Confessions

Everyone who exalts himself will be abased, and he humbles himself will be exalted (Luke 18:14). My righteousness comes from my Lord Jesus Christ. Any goodness that I have is from His Spirit in me. I need God's help every day. God gives me the desire to do His will. Jesus is the source of all my power. Without Him I can do nothing. But with Him I can do anything.

BELIEVER 4: thank you, this word is so powerful. Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, praise the Lord, hallelujah.

BELIEVER 2: Sharing from June 25th Opened Windows by T. Austin-Sparks

Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

We have to put back all our schemes, all our plans, all our arrangements, and all our programs for the Lord, we just need to be more in union with Him. The Lord needs to be more and our thought, and our desire, and in our will.  We need to see what the true value of living with Him in a spiritual union is. He is the one who grows in us, and He is the one who gives us more. If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have passed away, all things have become new. All things are of God in the new creation, all things are from God. There is a Man and a work of God, there is a Man to whom all works of God are entrusted. There is one Man, only one; only one Man. This is Christ. It is important to see who Christ is and what Christ is. He is a divine humanity. He is the fullness of what God wants. There is no expression of God apart from Christ. He is the first and last, you cannot get outside of that. The Lord's thoughts, wills, desires, works, and everything needs to become a new creation in us.

BELIEVER 4: this is to be united to the Son of Man.

BELIEVER 7: from EW Kenyon, we are continuing with The Two Kinds of Righteousness. Chapter 4

WHAT RIGHTEOUSNESS MEANS

THERE is no other word in the Bible, or in theology, which is less understood and appreciated than this word. Yet enwrapped within it is everything for which humanity has craved. This thing that Righteousness gives to man is the parent of all human religions. The gross, immoral religions of paganism, and the refined, cultured, philosophical religions of the modern day, are all the children of man's desire for the thing that Righteousness gives to him.

Righteousness restores to man all that he lost in the Fall, plus a new relationship as a son with all its privileges. Let us notice just a few of the many things that Righteousness gives us as revealed in Christ's finished work.

Our Standing Is Restored

Righteousness comes to us in the New Creation. It restores our standing before God. It takes away the old Sin-Consciousness that has crippled and robbed us of all our spiritual initiative, confidence and assurance in His presence. It restores to man a standing before the Father on the same ground that Jesus enjoyed in His earth walk. Remember the fearlessness of Jesus in the presence of the Father, His fearlessness before Satan.

He knew He had a legal right in the Father's presence. He knew He was Master of Satan and all his forces.

Remember how fearless He was in the storm, and what an absolute Ruler He was over the laws of nature. He was not afraid to say to dead Lazarus, even in the presence of a large number of people, "Lazarus, come forth." He had no sense of inferiority in the presence of death. He had no sense of inferiority in the presence of disease. He was not afraid to speak to the maimed and command them to become whole.

Righteousness is a masterful thing.

The problem is: Has God restored Righteousness to man ? That is the reason we are writing this little hook. We are trying to answer that age old problem.

Fellowship Is Restored

Righteousness restores to man his lost Fellowship. We see that Fellowship illustrated in Jesus' life. He approached the Father with the same liberty and freedom as a child approaches his parent. He addressed the Father as familiarly and as simply as a child addresses his father.

Jesus enjoyed a unique Fellowship. There was no sense of guilt, no sense of sin, no sense of condemnation in Jesus spirit. Our hearts are asking today, "Can God restore such a Righteousness to man?" We believe He can. We believe that the finished work of Christ guarantees it. Jesus had no sense of lack. When He needed money to pay His poll tax, He told Peter to go and catch a fish and he would find the money in its mouth.

When He fed the multitude of five thousand, they handed Him five loaves and three small fishes. He blessed the bread and broke it. The multitude was fed and twelve basketsful remained.

He had no sense of lack of money. He had no sense of lack of love, lack of knowledge, or lack of ability in any line. He had no sense of Sin-Consciousness. He had no Inferiority Complex. This Righteousness that Jesus had, gave Him the sweetest, most perfect Fellowship with the Father.

Faith Is Restored

Righteousness restores to man his lost faith. If you want to see this illustrated, go to the cities and see the congregations gather to hear men and women talk on psychoanalysis or, in other words, how to get faith in yourself...(BELIEVER 6: Amen)

BELIEVER 4: no, this is a natural thing. We cannot have faith in ourselves BELIEVER 6. It comes from God. (BELIEVER 6: amen)

BELIEVER 7: this comes from the error of the psychologists, idolizing self-esteem.

BELIEVER 3: how the philosophy of this world says that you need to believe in yourself or have faith in yourself, instead of faith in God.

BELIEVER 7: (continuing with Two Kinds of Righteousness)

how to get faith in yourself so you can become a master over others who have no faith in themselves. Jesus had no need of faith. He believed in Himself. He believed in His mission. He believed in His Father. And He must have believed in humanity.

BELIEVER 4: I feel to say something in things that you're saying. This believing in oneself in the way that Jesus believed is something fundamental, which is believing in His relationship with the Father. We are talking first about Jesus, relationship that Jesus has with the Father. Jesus never believed in Himself without His Father.

BELIEVER 7: this is clear, and this will break our hearts if we see this, because Jesus believed in His Father, He believed in Himself, and He believed in His mission. He was complete.

BELIEVER 4: were going to explain this because this is not three different messages, it is only one. This is a matter that we need to understand by the revelation of the Father through the Son, and we need to have the same kind of experience. Brother Kenyon puts it in three parts, but I say that it is only one thing. When Jesus said that He lived by the righteousness of the Father and by His relationship with the Father, in reality He did not have righteousness in Himself. He never counted His life as His own and anything, never. He did not exist in Himself, He existed in the Father. He did not of Himself know who He was. In the third point, His mission, the Son said, from what I see the Father doing, that is what I live by. He did not live by His own purpose, He lived by a mission, and that was to please the Father. So it is not three parts, it is just one that you can see in all the works of Jesus on the earth, which means obedience to the Father in all areas of His life.

BELIEVER 3: so we are talking about Jesus, He wasn't a fearful human being, with an inferiority complex. He wasn't prideful, but He knew who He was in the sense of, He knew that He came from God and that He had an union with His Father. This didn't produce pride, what it produced as John described it was, "we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." So Jesus' union with the Father and His Lordship over all things didn't produce pride, like having that much power would in us. So being one with the Father, He was a man full of grace and reality. It is hard for us to separate Jesus and the Father, and talk about them as two different people because as Jesus Himself said, "I speak what I hear My Father speaking," and everything, all words, all acts of Jesus that we see and hear, it was the Father. It wasn't just Jesus. It is not like we can say, Jesus is doing this in the Father is doing that. So it is hard to separate the two (BELIEVER 4: it's impossible). So that was going on here a little bit, we were separating the two but it wasn't working out too good, because it doesn't work like that.

BELIEVER 7: (continuing with Two Kinds of Righteousness)

If you want to see the necessity of restored Righteousness, go to our churches and see the utter faithlessness of the great body of Christendom. They are like Thomas who said, "I will not believe until I can put my finger into the print of the nails in His hand, and thrust my hand into His side."...

(BELIEVER 7 comment) How foolish.  How is it that the Catholics named Thomas special Saint...

Thomas' faith, like that of the modern Christian, was Sense Knowledge faith. It is faith in what they can see and hear and feel. This is the reason why some of the modern movements, which have so much physical demonstration, have challenged the faith of the multitudes. It is Sense Knowledge faith.

Peace Is Restored

Only when Righteousness is restored can peace be restored. It restores our peace with God. The individual is like the mass. The mass is like the nation-seething, restless, having no peace and no quietness. Isaiah 57:20-21 "But the wicked are like the troubled sea ; for it cannot rest, and its waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked."

The sense of lack, the sense of guilt, the sense of want, the consciousness of burdens and unpaid bills fill the heart with anxiety and restlessness. Righteousness restores quietness and rest to the spirit. We are no longer afraid of bills, no longer afraid of circumstances. Faith rises unconsciously and we face the most adverse conditions with a sense of superiority. We are masters. There is nothing that man needs so much today as a sense of Righteousness.

Freedom Is Restored

It not only restores peace, but it gives man the thing for which the human heart has sought and struggled down through the ages-freedom. The greatest freedom is not political freedom, freedom from financial worry or physical discomfort, but it is freedom from Sin Consciousness. Righteousness restores freedom to man-the same kind of freedom that Jesus had-the kind of freedom that the human has craved above every other thing. It is freedom in Christ, freedom from the fear of Satan, freedom from the fear of man because we trust in God with all our hearts. We lean not upon our own understanding.

We are not harassed and depressed by Sense knowledge or by circumstances. We stand in the sweet, wonderful consciousness of-"My Father is greater than all," and "Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world".

Sonship Is Given

Righteousness gives us the sweet consciousness of sonship privileges. We are sons. God is our Father. We are His children. We are in His family. We know our Father. He loves us and we love Him. Righteousness restores to us the joy, the unspeakable joy of Fellowship with heaven on terms of equality. We are not servants. We are not sinners. We are sons. We are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ.

BELIEVER 4: BELIEVER 8, we really appreciate in this night, how the Lord is put in your heart to share with us, and to bless the brothers here. We have enjoyed having this Fellowship. The only thing that I feel is that if you have something to share go ahead, if not you can bless the brothers and we're in touch as soon as the Spirit leads. So praise the Lord and thank you for this night. Thank you that you joined in, and it has it been a blessing to the brothers, and we pray that Believer 9 recovers soon.

BELIEVER 8: this is been very interesting, I've had thoughts about when you have discussed. Would you agree that righteousness, 'right-ness', and that the restoration of righteousness, I believe is that when we are saved, we were in the fallen state, and the blood of Jesus, and the love, and the forgiveness that comes from Him, restores us from the 'right-ness' of the world, through the rightness of the heavens, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and all that He has to offer us. And when we walk in the rightness that God gives us through the blood of Jesus, and the teaching of the Holy Spirit, then we have this liberty that BELIEVER 7 was talking about. It frees us from the condemnation of sin. So I am thankful that the rightness, which is being right, and you know that is a human tendency, but now we know that it is the most important thing from heaven too, to be right in the heavenly way, rather than the earthly way. I think that as human beings it is just in us to try to be right, to want to be right. I don't want to be too long, but I have been thinking, and it has been coming to me for a long time, and especially more in the last week or two about forgiveness. What I've been thinking is that, the world is full of wounded souls. Either they have been wounded or they have wounded another. Or they have both, sometimes we have been wounded and we have wounded others. I think that it is, that when you're in that state you can't move on. It is not only in the world that we find these wounded ones, but also in the body, and I think that it weakens the body. And I believe the rightness that we are restored to, that seems like when Jesus, he gave us forgiveness of our sins, and he gave us the love, so the love and the forgiveness of sins brings us to that place of knowing that forgiveness is something that he wants us to practice. And I believe that it keeps us from being in the place that God wants us to be so often, so I have just been thinking about that.

BELIEVER 4: we and the other brothers here feel more than bless with your sharing and with your thoughts concerning righteousness, or being right with man or being right with God. I really appreciate this point because it is crucial in the relationship that we have with God, and the relationship that we have with any man, that we have these kind of issues. You are not sharing too long, the only thing is that it just tried to give two or three sentences and then stop or pause, so that we have the chance to translate.

BELIEVER 8: I have just been seeing a world full of wounded souls. And these souls cannot move forward, some are unable to stay the course, and some are filled with emotions. These emotions range from hurt, anger, a broken heart, hatred, or seeking revenge. These emotions cause us to either be unuseful, resentful, confused. Sometimes it causes people to be dangerous to themselves or to others. So the answer is in forgiveness. All of life, whether it is the earthly or heavenly, whether you're saved or unsaved, all of these feelings are bound up with forgiveness.

BELIEVER 4: I feel so blessed the sharing of this night in you. I have a broken heart concerning what you put in the table because this sharing is a healing for many.

BELIEVER 8: in Ephesians 1:7, "7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace."  Then in Luke it says, "Forgive and you will be forgiven..." That I believe the other one is in 2 Corinthians 2, of course, you know I am not reading the whole thing and sometimes it alludes to other thoughts, that this is part of the word, and sometimes when we have unforgiveness, it says, "you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be overcome with excessive grief. And Paul says, "I forgive in the presence of Christ... Let Satan might take advantage of us, for we know his devices." So I think unforgiveness is devastating to the person who can't forgive, and to the one who is not forgiven. And that happens when we are leaning too much on our own senses, as BELIEVER 7 mentioned, then we're back into this right-ness, the clutch of not being able to forgive. The rightness, whether we are able to take the heavenly rightness or the earth the rightness, because usually being right is what causes unforgiveness, each one thinks that they are right, but if we can have heavenly rightness we won't have to be right, we will have to be the love of Christ.  So I think that the body is weakened because of unforgiveness, mere inches are broken, children and parents are separated, much of the tragedy and unhappiness in this world is due to unforgiveness. That is something that I have been thinking about a lot, I have seen precious people who are dear to me hang on to unforgiveness, wanting to walk with the Lord. So maybe we can just pray for the body, and especially for those who can't come to the Lord because they can't forgive something happened somewhere, maybe even a long time. That was my thought for the night.

BELIEVER 5: you know BELIEVER 4, this is a really key area here. I have a little thought to share possibly if we have another moment? Yeah because it talks about forgiving one another in the person of Jesus Christ, and that we are not ignorant of the devil's devices. Because the Lord alone is righteous, and the Lord is our righteousness. And if we don't have a relationship with Christ as our righteousness then we are in sin and we are still in a place of unforgiveness. And so when Christ died and everyone's sin is forgiven then we as believers in Christ should have the spirit of Christ in us which would not count anything that Christ died for, would count anything as not being forgiven. In other words we go against the blood of Christ if we don't forgive. So without the understanding of death then we don't understand forgiveness. So when Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5:14, it talks about, if Christ died for all then we judge all are dead. So because of Christ we are supposed to reckon everybody dead, and because of that death we experience forgiveness because we want to know Christ in each other, so everybody is dead because Christ died for everyone and then it is up to us to desire the person of Christ more than to have a spirit of unforgiveness for the person, for Christ's sake. So unless we have a desire and intention to know Christ Him each other, to know nothing about each other other than Christ and Him crucified, there is no reason to forgive people. Yes so BELIEVER 8 when you are mentioning these terrible situations, with the divorces, with the people that are having troubles with one another, my question is, do these people have a desire to know Christ in each other? And if they do then because Christ died for all of the sins and all of the trouble, then they should have no problem forgiving one another with the desire to experience Fellowship with Christ alone. So, I desire to hear from you all, what your thoughts are on this, because this is something that we are all dealing with, Amen?

BELIEVER 4: this is a serious matter

BELIEVER 5: yes, do we desire in Christ in each other more than anything?

BELIEVER 3: well, putting that prospective in it is pretty helpful. Like there is a prospective to know Christ in the other person. I've looked at the verse where it says, where Paul is saying that he forgives the people in the person of Christ, and it is like he is doing it, he is forgiving in Christ, like a recognition that he is not even trying to do it in himself, but what you said with desiring to know Christ and other people in if you have that desire, that definitely helps us deal with whatever problems we might have, instead of just remaining in the realm of everything that was crucified with Christ, instead of just remaining in that dead realm, when we explained the dead realm tonight as a realm where we all want to be right and not right with God, but write in whatever ways we like to be right, many different ways. So letting go of that... Which is the difficult part.

BELIEVER 5: I can't just talk about forgiveness without talking about forgetting. And it is one thing when Christ died for our sins so that we could be forgiven, but unless I have Christ in me, you know the spirit of Christ in me, I cannot forget. And so if I can't forget then I remember, and if I remember then there is a spirit of unforgiveness, and it doesn't actually come to pass. And we got into something here, and this in one sense is just beginning to open up. But as BELIEVER 8 brought this up I could just sense their burden and their grief with this, with whoever they know, and with certain situations that are going on with each one of us are exposed to different things where there is a lack of forgiveness, there is a lack of forgetting. So the body of Jesus Christ is sick.

BELIEVER 8: I would like to say, if we were really like Christ, we wouldn't be having all these things in the body, and our own minds occasionally it happens. It is recorded in the word, God knows that man is not perfect, and you know it tells about the man who stands praying, that if you have something against your brother go and more or less forgive him, make it right and then come back... Which indicates that he might know that it wasn't first in the man's mind, he wasn't maybe thinking of it as he made his prayer...He is reminding him, it looks like God is reminding us to check, the check every once in a while if we have anything against another. But you know, it could be that we need to remember that sometimes things come into lives from outside their own lives, and I believe that is why the body is weakened, so it behooves that the rest of us love one another because if a brother or sister is in an unforgiving place they need our love and our prayers, and that is the way that the body will be made well if we can not condemn but love and pray. And I am not saying that because I always do it, but I am saying that God and His word gave us the plan and we must just keep trying to walk in it. So by the help of the Holy Spirit we need to determine for victory, victory in the Christian life.  We must truly seek to forgive and pray for forgiveness, one for another in the body.

BELIEVER 5: could I interject here because there is another key point here that hasn't been brought up? We have talked about forgiveness as far as somebody doing something wrong, you know like somebody being condemned. But there is another thing that is going on here and it says, "who is he that lays a charge to God's elect?" That is different than "who is he that condemns?" It is one thing to be forgiven for being potentially condemned, but if the adversary has laid a charge against God's elect, we have Christ as you said earlier BELIEVER 8 about being right, Christ has given us His righteousness, Christ has given us all of His good works that none of us could do, and when the enemy comes in to charge us that we are not right, we are justified by God, and it is not a matter of forgiveness, it is a matter of being justified because Christ has given us His righteousness. So I will just say that at this point, because we haven't begun to open this up yet... This is the positive side, this is what we all need. And we don't want to be fooled into thinking that there is a problem here, there is a lack of understanding, these good works that we already have in Christ. So I will leave that there for now.

BELIEVER 8: I think this roundtable discussion is very good, back where I worked they call the brainstorming. But of course this is spiritual brainstorming which is entirely different...

BELIEVER 5: but the mind of Christ we brainstorm

BELIEVER 8: and it allows a balance because whenever we bring forth thoughts, it brings other thoughts into play. So the balance is good Lord helping.

BELIEVER 5: a pattern that I've seen over the years is that people think that they just have a problem with forgiving people, but this is all based upon the negative sin, like being sin-oriented... Like with original sin, and Jesus dying for sins, and the forgiveness. But the other side of this whole thing is that Christ came here to finish the work and to literally prepare these good works for us and to literally impart to us the righteousness of God.  And when people don't have the righteousness of God with one another, and they are not experiencing that, if we don't have the righteousness of Christ and the good works that have been prepared for us then this is where there is a lack of satisfaction in their relationships with one another, and in this faultfinding comes in, you know people finding fault with one another because they are not enjoying the righteousness of God in each other.  And so there is a difference between, you know we hear about being justified by faith or being justified in life, and so Christ came here to do what Adam and Eve didn't do in terms of a better relationship with God. And if people don't have this vital life and this righteousness of God in them, then they ordinarily relate to it as some form of sin, and they find fault with one another because of falling short of this righteousness that they are actually supposed to get as a gift, the gift of righteousness that grace reigns through. So I will just say that and leave it there on the preliminary level. 

BELIEVER 3: I think this is healthy to talk about, because I don't talk about this subject deeply with too many people... Because I think most people are defeated in this area, so they don't like to talk about it, and obviously the Lord's warnings against it are not pleasant, like if you don't forgiven you won't be forgiven, things like that. What about that one?

BELIEVER 5: I would just say in one sentence, there is a negative side of this whole thing, like if you don't forgive you will not be forgiven, judge not lest ye be judged, and all that kind of stuff on the negative side. But I am sure that you realize that there is a primary problem here, it is not about what people do wrong, like doing wrong, but it is what they didn't do right. And so BELIEVER 8 was talking about this earlier in this realm of forgiveness, and people not forgiving or having an unforgiving spirit, and so there's problems with marriages and all kinds of problems. But many times we are dealing with the sin of commission, like what people do wrong, like against one another. The things that people do because they don't have life, the things that people do wrong because they don't have the right life. And when BELIEVER 8 was bringing this out, and she was struggling with it about righteousness and right, about being right, is you hear her on the outset in the beginning, her bringing that up a number of times? (yes). Well here's the point, I am familiar with this in terms of people's lack of understanding of Christ finishing the work, and doing works that are righteous, and when people don't really understand that they have the righteousness of Christ and His good works, then they're kind of bankrupt in that area and they are struggling because they don't have this righteousness, and they are preoccupied with Jesus just dying for the sin, so they are really revolving over and over again around this condemnation thing, and doing wrong. Rather than being occupied with Christ as their righteousness and having these good works that Christ has already accomplished, and it even says in Hebrews that these works were finished from since the foundation of the world, like Hebrews 4:3.

BELIEVER 3: for us to walk in, the works prepared for us from before the foundation of the world...

BELIEVER 5: yes and if we are not, like in Ephesians 2:10, there is a number of places it talks about this... And on a preliminary level I will just ask you, how many people do you know that? You have fellowship with that understand this in a substantial way? And in one sense I am not talking about numbers of people, I am just saying, using that as an example. You know in Hebrews 5 where it says that people are like babies, they need to be taught again and it says that they are unskillful in the word of righteousness, this is what we are talking about. And about, why are people able to interest, like in Hebrews chapter 3 and 4? How in the heck can you rest unless the job is finished? In other words, is the finished work just Jesus dying for sins, but with no substance, you know just taking care of the problem but not providing a solution? And then in Romans 8 where it talks about," who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? it is God who justifies, and who is it who condemns? it is Christ to died,  yea, rather who is also risen." So we see two points here, one who is it who shall lay a charge to God's elect... Laying a charge to God's elect. On the other hand who is it who condemns? So those two things that are going on here, one is that we are familiar with if somebody does something wrong then they can go ahead and potentially be judged for it and condemns. But it says in there that Christ died, Christ died, so the person doesn't have to be judged because Christ got judge for them, so there is no condemnation. Now on the other hand, it says who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? We are not talking about Christ here we are talking about God. It says it is God who justifies, it is God who justifies. On the other hand it says, who is he who condemns? It doesn't say anything about God  in this one, it says Christ who died. So I am just putting the cards in the table. We are playing with. So you can imagine that if somebody having a charge laid against them, like not being righteous, and Christ as their righteousness, then what kind of the problem is that? Do people mistake that for some kind of this sin, or some kind of a condemnation?

BELIEVER 3: yeah, that is mainly the way that I take in myself, as kind of a charge.  Like a feeling of your guilty or something like that.

BELIEVER 5: guilt is because you do something wrong, I am talking about that we didn't do something right. You know like the sin of omission in the sin of commission? You are familiar with guilt as you did do something wrong, you did do something that you shouldn't have done. Rather than you didn't do what you were supposed to do. There is a difference, maybe you have heard this expression where mercy is when you don't get what you do deserve when you did do what you shouldn't have done. And grace is when you do get what you don't deserve when you didn't do what you're supposed to. Have you ever heard that one?

BELIEVER 3: no

BELIEVER 5: wow, you have had a deprived childhood (joke). We are familiar with grace and mercy. We are not talking about love of God the Father, we are only talking about grace and mercy. And we are familiar with mercy, mercy is dealing with a blood. Like Grace is dealing with like the oil, you know to empower us. Are you familiar with these two different aspects here?

BELIEVER 3: yes, especially with the teachings of Witness Lee.

BELIEVER 5: okay, because I don't want to be talking about something you are not acquainted with. So in the Old Testament they talked about with the priest, first when they are going to consecrate a priest and he has got a get tuned in, they put blood on his ear, his thumb, on his toe. And then they put oil on his ear, his thumb, and his toe. You're familiar with that. So then we go and talk about being justified, that means and that means you're like, it's not just as though you have never sinned, and it's just as if you are righteous. A justification of life. So we got started out on the subject of forgiveness tonight, and then there was something brought up to about being right. And so there is a situation where when people are wrong, then they need to be forgiven. And then on the other hand when the people need to be right, they need to be justified, like the person is just, the person is righteous. There is two different points here.

BELIEVER 3: not just because they don't do anything wrong, but they do what they're supposed to.

BELIEVER 5: yes and we are talking about something so important here, this is like the fundamentals. You know like in fighting, martial arts, this is like block and punch, block and punch, block and punch. If you are just blocking all the time you are not punching. You are a defensive game. And I'm just using a really bad illustration here, but it will have to suffice. So when we are talking about forgiveness for something that has been done wrong, but you are not able to initiate the right thing, and we've got a problem because a person doesn't have righteousness, and we are having a problem because a person cannot share an overflow of the righteousness of God.  And you know what happens with people, when people are not experiencing the righteousness of God with them, they got a problem. And if they don't discern what it is, they will go ahead and condemn a person for not doing the right thing. Like the person didn't do anything wrong, they just didn't have what they needed to do anything right. So oftentimes you have people that are indifferent toward one another, not because people have done something wrong, but because they don't have anything to share. They don't have any life, they don't have any righteousness, they are not right.

BELIEVER 3: so righteousness as far as relating it to that verse that says "justification of life." And then relating justification of life to walking in the works that were prepared for us from before the foundation of the world

BELIEVER 5: yes I think that is in Romans 5:18. Yes it is like Christ came here to finish the work. Yes Christ came here, like in Hebrews 10:7, where it says, "Lo, is written in the volume of the book I have come to do your will." And I will just say this, unfortunately, because Christ's life has been privately interpreted, like He came here just to die for people's sins, but He didn't come here to obey the Father... Let's put it like this, you could have a sacrifice for sin, or you could have a sacrifice of life, a living sacrifice. So it is one thing to be sacrificed for sin because of a problem, but when Christ lived a sacrificial life, He lived a life of obedience to the Father. He was perfecting human living. He is actually re-creating the entire human race in Himself. If He didn't do that, the only message that we have is "Jesus died for your sins, and when you die hopefully you go to heaven, and you don't go to hell."So what are working to do until then, are we just can go back to church and hear another salvation message?

BELIEVER 3: yes, the first church that I was involved in preached a salvation message every week.

BELIEVER 5: so, where is hearing about that the works were finished from before the foundation of world, and we are in Christ to experience His righteousness as our life, and to work out this righteous life of Christ. And to experience His good works that have been prepared. Where is that, where is the inheritance, not just the salvation? Where is the inheritance?

BELIEVER 3: walking in those works would be part of the inheritance, or like a positive side, not just the negative side.

BELIEVER 5: yes, periodically we touch on this, like the positive side of the cross not just the negative. This is what we are talking about, and it is like this is so substantial because this is when you actually get something, like you can sink your teeth into, whereas if you are just forgiven of your sentence then it is like, okay you took care of a problem, Redeemed us from sin. How about the liberty to live a right life? Where are the good works? Where is the justification of life?

BELIEVER 3: that's good, I've heard that I like that term. I don't know that's a new thing, the justification of life, is that something only in the recovery version or is that in other versions too? That term was new to me and I didn't understand it.

BELIEVER 5: I think it is in the Bible. Yea, you are familiar with the term justification by faith, that is a big one. But justification of life, this is like, this is the key one.

Romans 5:18

so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life.

Recovery Version Footnote 18,2

Life is the goal of God's salvation; thus, justification is "of life." Justification is not an end in itself; it is for life. Through justification we have come up to the standard of God's righteousness and correspond with it, so that now He can impart His life to us. Justification changes our outward position; life changes our inward disposition. Justification unto life indicates that life is the focus of this chapter and that the organic union of life is an issue of justification.

BELIEVER 5: yes so he has another way of saying it, but he said it. And it is like this, I have joked around with you before and said, how can people live together without life, they can't they can only survive and exist. But if you have life then you can live together, capish. Isn't it amazing! So when BELIEVER 8 is talking about these couples, divorces, these problems that people have with one another, you know what the primary problem is? It is not all the stuff that people do wrong, it is the fact that they don't have His life, it is the fact that they don't have His works, it is the fact they don't have His righteousness.  It is terrible, they are bankrupt, they don't have anything to share. Isn't it sad? And then people feel bad, and then they get mad at the other person because the other person isn't giving them any life.  So, who shall a charge to God's elect? It is God who justifies. So the enemy comes in and goes, "hey, you're not right, you're not righteous." Then we say, I am putting on the robe of righteousness, and this protects us from somebody coming in and laying a charge to us and saying "you're not right, you're not righteous." They are not saying that you did anything wrong, but they're basically saying or questioning your character. They're saying, "Hey, you are not tuned in, you're not right." So we will go back to Hebrews five where talks about, and a little bit before that it talks about where Christ learned obedience by the things that He suffered... He learned obedience, what was that all about? He was basically as a man obeying the Father and doing the proper works. As you said in John 6, as the Father works I work, what I see the Father doing that I also do. I can do nothing of Myself. What was he doing here? He was here to work the work of God, He was here to finish the work of man being like God. Isn't this incredible! And so when a person receives Christ they literally receive the inheritance, they receive the inheritance of God who became man. They receive a new life, they receive a righteous life. Isn't this awesome! It is really. This is not just accept Christ who died for your sins, this is accept Christ as your righteousness. Be justified.

BELIEVER 3: accept Christ as your justification of life

BELIEVER 5: not just the deal of, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, because you did wrong.

BELIEVER 3: yes because if you don't have the justification of life and the person doesn't know what to do, and of course they're going to continue to do wrong because they don't know what to do right. And they're going to feel bad about everything. That is why it says "there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed us from the law of sin and death."

BELIEVER 5: you're making sense. The law of the spirit of life actually gives us life. And then when you have life, you don't have to be involved with the law of sin and death. But if you don't have the life, then you will just be preoccupied with sin and death. Terrible.

BELIEVER 3: yes one person who talks about this quite a bit is J.B. Stoney, he talks about people wanting to be, or he says you will not be set free from condemnation by, are people going to the wrong source for freedom, which would be Jesus dying for your sin, but you won't really be set free from condemnation into you know that the law of spirit of life sets you free from the loss and death.

BELIEVER 5: yes, you have got to have something positive, not just the negative. Not just the absence of the negative without the presence of the positive life.

BELIEVER 3: it is horrible to just play defense. If you have a football team and your offense sucks but you got a pretty good defense, it is painful if you're trusting in your defense to score.

BELIEVER 5: yes in other words, if you don't score you don't win. Even if you play really good defense. And so much of Christianity they are all playing defense, and they are just being driven back because they're not doing so good. So we have a breastplate of righteousness, the prodigal came back and he gets the robe. Amazing, we are clothed with the righteousness of God. Jesus said, "seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all this stuff will be added unto you." What you think that means in the light of what we are talking about?

BELIEVER 3: seek first the justification of life

BELIEVER 5: and that happens, because Christ obeyed. Adam disobeyed, and he reaped condemnation. Christ obeyed and he was justified in life. And you know what it says about life, it says that the just shall live by faith. And you know the verb to live in that portion is in the middle voice.  So I don't know who these people are that are divorced and stuff, but could you imagine these people that don't have life and they're trying to live together, that sucks.

BELIEVER 3: that sucks really bad, if you just have some physical attraction or whatever you think that you could tolerate each other because of that.

BELIEVER 5: yeah that's your reward. Your pitiful reward, for having to put up with the person. I have this book called why your life sucks and what you can do about it. It is really sad, it is because people basically give the other person their life, rather than give it to God. And of course the other person doesn't know how to handle it, so their life sucks. It is pitiful. I have another one that deals with toxic love. Because when people don't have the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, if they don't have the righteousness of God, they're basically bankrupt, even though Christ has died for their sins, they still got nothing going. They are not skillful in the word of righteousness, they do not know how to clothe people with righteousness, the righteousness of Christ.

BELIEVER 3: like a person that could be rich, but that is bankrupt, like they don't have anything in the bank. Or I don't know if they have.

BELIEVER 5: yes they don't know, because Christ many times has only been presented as a savior, and not the Lord of life, not the Lord our righteousness, you know where it talks about in Jeremiah, the Lord our righteousness. This is what we are talking about. I heard one time, you know what the worst heresy is? Ignoring the Holy Spirit. Just ignoring the Spirit, who convicts us of righteousness, of sin, and of judgment. The Holy Spirit literally convicts us about this righteousness. Can you imagine, it is one thing for people to tell people lies like tell them something wrong, like this is purple that is not green, that is really green, that is a lie. But do you know a worse problem, and this is the difference between a black lie and white lie. Like we've talked before about hypocrisy, ordinarily people say that hypocrisy is when people say one thing but do another, but the real deal is that when a person goes ahead and they have all kinds of different faces, they play around all different kinds of people in order to keep face with all these different people, they have to put on different faces like makeup. And so white lie isn't just saying something good about somebody so that you don't hurt their feelings, it is when you don't tell the whole truth. A black lie is when you definitely say something wrong. Like, when you tell somebody the only have one dollar when you have five, that is a lie. When they check your pocket and they say now you got five you'll have one, you lied, you told a lie. But if someone tells a white lie, then they don't tell part of the truth, they don't tell the whole truth, and the whole truth might be that they left out the most essential thing about it. So somebody goes ahead and give somebody the gospel in the say hey, "why don't you accept Christ who died for your sins. Say this prayer after me, raise your hand accept Christ, and you can go to heaven not go to hell. Pray this prayer with me right now." Bump, Bump,Bump,Bump,Bump. Rather than telling the whole thing, Christ actually came here, and was obedient to God unto death, perfected human living, which Adam and Eve never did, and when He died He also died for your sins to, taking care of the penalty.  So when you end up believing in Christ, and you end up accepting Christ, you end up not only just getting your sins paid for, but you end up getting His righteousness, which is what you need to live.

BELIEVER 3: because most people are basically concerned about going to hell, that is the way that the Lord is presented, that they wouldn't even begin to think about something like justification of life.

BELIEVER 5: so that is an example of a person being told a white lie gospel. And it is like this, if the person doesn't tell somebody the whole truth, and that their stage and age, and they don't know any better yet, then they're stuck with a partial truth. Even though that they might know that they haven't got the whole thing, they really don't know what it is. Although they know is that there is a lack and that they are not satisfied. Like, "this isn't doing it."

BELIEVER 3: and the partial truth in this case is pretty painful, because you have Jesus dying for your sins as your Savior, but if you don't have justification of life and are not experiencing that, then sin continues, and you continue sinning, then it becomes worst almost. A person can become more miserable in that state.

BELIEVER 5: yeah and then you can be codependent with some other people that are miserable, and then they all have the same problems, they all have a certain kind of sin, then they end up doing the sins together. Rather than people having the righteousness of God in Christ, where they can experience the justification in life, and grace reigns through righteousness. Grace doesn't reigns without righteousness. Where Jesus said, "you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." What do you think the truth is? The Lord our righteousness. This is so incredible, to having impartation and then imputation of righteousness. Talk about proper self-esteem.  And we were talking about this earlier in the day where the Pope goes ahead and finally decides to tell the people that, "hey you know what, the problem with people and their sexuality and their marriages and everything is that they don't know that they're made in the image and likeness of God." So now we have a new teaching, which is that the primary identity of you is that you are made in the image and likeness of God.  So even if a person does not know Christ yet, but they hear the creation story of the Creator who made them, the creation, in the image and likeness of the Creator, and He says this is very good, and this person finds out that this Creator is love, then you can see that the Creator loves what He made. And even if the thing gets whacked out, He turns around and fixes it. He restores it, so that He is able to love it. So when Christ was sent into the world and He takes on human flesh and He obeys the Father to the "T", that is where He goes ahead in the image and likeness of God the Father has been re-formed in man, and that is our salvation in a relationship with God. We have a relationship with God because of His righteousness, not because He died for our sins. We can actually relate to one another, we can actually reflected the image and likeness of one another. We have something in common, rather than people saying, "well we both got something, we like the same sin." Let's have relationship because we both have the same common sin, we both have the same evil desire. Pitiful. 

BELIEVER 3: relationship because you have something in common, that is another thing that you don't really get just dealing with forgiveness of sins. Still doesn't give you something in common.

BELIEVER 5: yes it doesn't give you something it takes away something. It takes the sin away. What brings in the righteousness, because we need righteousness for life. If you don't have righteousness you don't like. That would block it before was sin, so He remove the sin, so there is a part of the thing, the hindrance is gone, but if we don't have anything to go by, no equity, what you got? A void. I don't know if you've interacted much with people before along lines like this?

BELIEVER 3: no not really

BELIEVER 5: when most people haven't, because most of the time

BELIEVER 3: yes, in terms of Jesus doesn't only need to be your Savior but your Lord, but not so deep as far as Him being the Lord of life, and as receiving the justification of life. Instead it is like, you don't get the benefit that you get a challenge also.  The way I usually interact with people in this is, as far as Him not only being our Savior but our Lord also, it's like don't think you get the benefits free without a challenge. The benefits of having your sins forgiven and the challenge of making Him your Lord.

BELIEVER 5: yes and with the challenge of making Him your Lord, if you don't know the you have inherited His righteousness, maybe you would have to sink down into some good works, of our own like trying to fulfill the law, rather than the hearing of faith. And that is were you going to the whole teaching on, are you justified by faith are you justified by the works of the law? 

BELIEVER 3: where was that part in Jeremiah where it says the Lord our righteousness,

BELIEVER 5: Jeremiah 23:6

“Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,

“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;

A King shall reign and prosper,

And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

In His days Judah will be saved,

And Israel will dwell safely;

Now this is His name by which He will be called:

THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

I look back at this, and finding this stuff out bits and pieces here and there, here and there, here and there. What a trip it has been. (I am glad you found out). Me to. I talked with my wife earlier today, when she works with some of the galls in AA with problems, and addictions. She said this one gall, you know how they have this 12 step programs, where they work these 12 steps through, and earlier stages of it you try to make amends and work through some of the problems of the past. So the thing that she did with this one gall, is she said, "what is your definition of God, who do you think God is?" Because they talk about the higher power, and the God of your understanding, the way the you understand God.  So she asked her, "who is God to you?" So she said the gall told her who she thought God was and it was horrifying, like a devil. And it was like, boy, you don't abandon yourself to that, that would really mess you up, you think you got problems now. So then do you know she did, she said, "hey, why don't you write down if you could have the ideal God, who would the ideal God?" And so she did and she described who God really is. Isn't that precious. So I said, the reason that she was able to do that probably, is because she is made in the image and likeness of God, and intuitively she knows who God should be, even though she had been lied to. So it's just another one of us things, what people have to go through, coming out of insanity. So I just felt burdened about what BELIEVER 8 was talking about these people and his divorces and stuff, and I was just asking the Lord about it, this understanding of being forgiven and forgotten, and this forgotten part so you can get rid of it, instead of just trying to do with this forgiveness thing so that we can move on to what is right and really understanding Christ as our righteousness. Once people begin to understand Christ is their righteousness, then they can begin to experience this righteousness of Christ in them, and that is pretty exciting. You find out that Jesus, the spirit of Christ in us actually fulfills the law, the law of the spirit of life as set me free from the law of sin and death, incredible. So we have a new nature that is righteous, and it does right, and we just learned how to submit to the Lord who is the Holy Spirit, for the righteous Spirit, and guess what He is going to do, He is going to do right. He can do wrong, He is going to do right.

BELIEVER 3: He is going to do the works that have been prepared from before the foundation of the world.

WHO WAS DELIVERED FOR OUR OFFENSES AND RAISED FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION